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Ep. 22 Quantum Leaping from W-2 to 1099 in Consulting with Mathias Gran of WorkWithFeelings.com




Ep. 22 Quantum Leaping from W-2 to 1099 in Consulting with Mathias Gran of WorkWithFeelings.com


Absolutely love Mathias's heart-felt energy and way of going about his leap to fulfill his passion for supporting human capital in the corporate world.


We discuss all things needed in companies to bring about a desirable and profitable business along including mental health.


We also cover how he overcame discomfort and embraced being seen along with the 8-Second Secret.


Learn More:

https://workwithfeelings.com


Book talked about- An Everyone Culture - Lisa Lahey



TRANSCRIPT:


[00:00:00] All right. Today we have Mathias Gran. I originally met him in a mastermind that we were both involved in, and we just kind of clicked and supported each other throughout this kind of doing our own thing.


[00:00:14] To be honest, we didn't really follow the mastermind structure, but. You know, that happens sometimes. I've found that some of the personal development stuff I've invested in, it's really ends up being about the people, and this was for sure one of them. So that Mastermind was all about, that was one of the transformational coach certifications that I've done.


[00:00:38] And why were you in it? Why was I in it? Yeah. I was gonna, cause I was working in a corporate environment and my title was Global Transformation Coach.. And so I think I showed up on the search results for the solicitation list. And I had. I had been around corporate and executive coaches before.


[00:00:58] But I, I had [00:01:00] done that work on accident. I was always in other roles. And so I was curious. I wanted to learn more about the people in the space and if I fit in that scene. So that was really why I, I was in that mastermind or these my people. That's what I was trying to answer. Yeah. And how did you end up as a global transformation coach?


[00:01:18] When I hear that, I think global. You know, like all the other countries. Yeah. Is it global within, within the company or, yeah, so this, it was a, it was an international firm and we had offices in three or four different countries. And so I was working under the global, you know, the chief change officer for the company.


[00:01:38] Okay. And we were trying to bring about some organizational change, some culture change. And I was one of the influencers in the US so I spent a lot of my time working with different business units within the US and, and helping them understand how they fit into the larger change and how they should communicate to their teams.


[00:01:56] Really doing change management and organizational change management. Something [00:02:00] that I care about a lot about and, and have the chance to, to work on there. I actually have quite a few friends that did the organizational change management at Pepperdine here, and when I hear about some of the stuff they did, I'm like, oh my God.


[00:02:13] It's a lot like a lot of the personal development courses I've done, like very similar I love it like exercises. Facilitation of workshops that are transformational was your experience like that? So that's, that's the part of it I love.


[00:02:30] I I've sort of shed the OCM or organizational change management label a bit because there, there's sort of two lanes. There's the really deep personal connection, storytelling narrative, emotional buy-in that side I really, really enjoy and, and do well in. There's another version of o OCM that's very process minded, very process oriented, and so, An example of an OCM project might be converting from Microsoft Outlook to Gmail to, you know, change of service.


[00:02:59] So that requires [00:03:00] change management in the, in the sense that you're asking all your employees to have different behaviors. But it's not really tied necessarily to organizational strategy. For the experience of the workplace, which are things that I care more about. So I've, I've interviewed and, and been asked to help on some more technical changes.


[00:03:18] But, but my real, my real space is in, in the people space. And, and you, and you called that out for me, Bethany. That's what I'm, I'm so happy to be here with you because very early on in that mastermind, I think you said something like, boy, you're all heart. You know, you're just all heart energy. And it was really flattering and important for me to hear that at the time.


[00:03:37] Because I think for a long time I, I almost denied that part of me, even though that drives everything that I do. And so for you to name it for me really unlocked a piece of me that showed up in all this work that I was doing every single day. But I was still looking at it through the lens of. Of how am I executing this role, not necessarily through the lens of who am I as a leader and who am I as a person?


[00:03:58] And so that one little line, [00:04:00] Bethany, really unlocked for me a whole new narrative about how I lead and how I engage the world. So I, I thank you so much for that. So good. That's why they call me a catalyst. Yeah. But it's so true. I think anyone that works with Mathias really feels the heart, really feels the heart center how much he cares and so much compassion.


[00:04:21] I think we, we are groomed to be who we are through our past situations, and as a healer, I'm constantly shedding these things for myself and for my clients. And so I've become who I am. I am all about saying that I'm heart-centered and I do that, but you literally evoke the feeling when I talk to you of being heart-centered.


[00:04:45] Thank you. So how, how do you think you ended up there? I, I don't, I don't know for sure. If we take some guesses. I, I think for me, when I, when I look back in my body and my soul and my heart, in my mind, [00:05:00] the memories that were important to me were largely with my, my mom's mom. So my maternal grandmother, and if you put me next to newsprint, Menthol cigarettes and coffee.


[00:05:14] Those three smells are the smells of her screen porch. My, my grandpa was a a he smoked cools. Yeah. And so cigarette smoke, newsprint, and coffee, if those three smells are my grandma's house. And if you put me in those smells, I'm right back there. I'm a little kid on the porch, on a cool morning in a house without air conditioning in the Midwest.


[00:05:33] And this woman was, she, she just emanated. Comfort. And it wasn't like accommodation, but it was safety. You know, it was, it was a calm, loving, safe, grounded energy. I am a non practicing faith person, but she was a very devout Catholic. And she talked to the dear Lord every day. And I think that if we apply that [00:06:00] practice to other modalities in terms of spirituality, it can look like meditation, it can look like mindfulness.


[00:06:06] It can look like connection. And I think that her daily ritual of talking to the dear Lord, as she said you know, gave her that groundedness that she needed to roll with life. And so I think to map this back to my heart energy, you know, she was heart, she was care, she was compassion. But she was also integrity.


[00:06:28] Like she knew who she was and that created the calm safety that we would all feel around her. Yes. So I think my heart energy really came from that experience being young, of being in a safe, loving place. And if I look back now, it's. I don't know how often I carried that with me in terms of experientially outside of Grandma's house.


[00:06:50] And that's the mission that I'm on now, to live with abundance and create abundance for others because that's the, that's the safe place that my body and spirit [00:07:00] needs to be. And it's my responsibility to create it for, for my children and for people around me. Yes. Love that.


[00:07:07] And. For you, I mean, you've worked with all sorts of different companies, what that last position you were in? Or one of them, cuz we haven't talked in a while. I know, right? It's like you were meant to work with one division, but you're like, really, it's stemming from the top the, to like reorg,


[00:07:28] and, at the end of the day, it sounded like that had a lot to do with. Feelings. And by the way, we didn't even cover this, but of course he started a company start called Work With Feelings, his own consulting company so he can run a how he, once he can work with the CEOs and tell 'em what's up.


[00:07:47] I think it's the best name ever. It is so good. And you know, some people are very put out by the, by the name, work with feelings and and I, I use that as fuel because, [00:08:00] My perspective, so, so I'm, I'm educated in a traditional sense, but I'm also educated to experience and in the traditional academic perspective.


[00:08:10] I think if you're around psychology and decision making and human behavior, you see that emotions really drive every decision we make. And this also comes out in change management. So when we think about helping people have a different behavior, we really need to connect to their heart. We need to connect to some emotion that helps them understand how they fit and, and it feels real to them.


[00:08:32] And so the work that I was doing in corporate settings, I would over and over and over again. See that the challenge on a team or the challenge within a department or the oddness in an interaction where executives might say, we have the wrong people in this, in this space. I would often see the right people there, but they were just hiding.


[00:08:56] And so, I found over and over again that the [00:09:00] feelings, the emotion, the experience that people were having absolutely shaped the perception of their work, absolutely shaped their decision making. Absolutely got in the way of them being great. And so when I was able to help them show up and feel welcome, and feel heard, and feel safe and create that environment people just start flourishing.


[00:09:19] It's, magic. And the metaphor that I use here is Has to do with, with land management. So my brother is a forester and one of his favorite things to do is to restore wetlands. Because wetlands have this massive benefit to the ecosystem up and downstream from, from wherever these wetlands are created, and in agricultural settings, people will actually destroy the wetlands to be able to plant more crops because it's a very mathematical decision.


[00:09:49] More, more acreage equals more money. And so people have been draining or redirecting waterways in agricultural areas for a long time. And what he does is actually [00:10:00] pull out the redirection and just reintroduce water where there used to be and create these really th flourishing ecosystems. And so I asked him about this and I said how, how do you find high quality seed for all this wetland life that you know, hasn't been around for 30, 40, 50 years?


[00:10:18] And he looked at me with a crinkled brow. He was very confused. He like, what do you mean? I'm like, you know, how do you reintroduce the plants that used to be there in this wetland area? And he said, they're already there. I'm like, what do you mean They're already there? It's been tilled and fertilized, and sprayed for, for four decades.


[00:10:35] How? What do you mean they're already there? He said, these seeds can survive without water for sometimes hundreds of years. So all you need to do is bring the water back and the wetland thrives again. And I just got chills telling you this story because that's exactly how it is with people. If you create the right space for them to show up, they will.


[00:10:53] And not only will they show up, but they'll thrive. And so when we talk about working with feelings, it's talking about that [00:11:00] experience. How can we create the opportunity for people to show up, be seen, valued, appreciated and ensure that they have a chance to do the great work that they're meant to do?


[00:11:09] Nice. I mean, yeah. Just this morning I was talking, I'm, I'm doing a course with a friend of mine called Intuitive Revenue Revolution Course. Okay. And one of the things that came up to talk about, so anyone listening, you're getting some insight of the course, is how we've been conditioned, like just historically, not necessarily everyone, but we've been conditioned genetically to hate going to work.


[00:11:35] You know, it's like you have to work, you have to work to provide. And how we do one thing is how we do everything. So if we're going in as the business owner or the c e o and we're holding that energy, if I have to be here, I don't wanna be here, but I need to do this and I need to run my company or whatever, that, that's a trickle down effect.


[00:11:53] And you have all these employees that are constantly left and right. Leaving the great Exodus or whatever [00:12:00] to do their own thing because they aren't feeling fulfilled. But what if at the top of the chain, you were feeling fulfilled, you were loving what you were doing, then that would also trickle down into your employees, you know, a Absolutely.


[00:12:14] So I'm, I'm also an adjunct professor in leadership for MBAs. And this is what we focus on a lot, is that what exactly what you hit on, which is sometimes called being an authentic leader. But it is, you know, looking at yourself, what you value, what's important to you. And this is a very eye-opening experience for a lot of leaders because it's almost like they're, they, they're not given permission to be who they are.


[00:12:39] And you need someone to give you permission. It seems to be able to decide that you're worth it and what you think and experience matters. And I just finished interviewing eight different facilitators of Brene Brown's Dare to Lead curriculum and an important theme that came out from those interviews.


[00:12:59] I was asking [00:13:00] about where the line is in business, where, you know, we can talk about certain things, but we can't talk about all the things because that's not professional or that's not work. Ah, yeah. And HR And HR gets involved. Yeah, exactly. Hr, yeah. So eight out of eight times these trained experts said, That's bs.


[00:13:19] You know, we can't put people in boxes. We can't draw a line because every human is experiencing these challenges in their life, and if we deny you the chance to name and process those experiences, it just bottles up and it comes out in really weird ways. Or it leads to sort of an internal self-harming cycle where your body's almost.


[00:13:41] It needs to process and get through this, this hard stuff. And one example of this that I, that I think is, I'm still working through cuz I'm not super knowledgeable about the armed services, but I, I talked to I had a student in the Air Force and she said, You know, the whole idea of service is you, [00:14:00] you check that stuff at the door because you have a job to do.


[00:14:02] You come in and you do your job. When you're serving, you have to serve because if you're distracted by your home life you're gonna mess up the mission and someone can die. So, hu huge high stakes, right? When I spoke to these facilitators who have worked with the armed services, they're like, we're trying to figure out how to crack this perspective because it is impossible if you are mourning to leave that loss at the door.


[00:14:26] It is impossible if you're depressed, to suddenly become un undepressed when you're on the clock. It is impossible to do what we're asking these people to do, and. That is the same story about you showing up as a leader, you being an authentic person. It's, it's, it's who you are. Right? And so you have to honor that and, and, and be willing to show up in that way and talk about it.


[00:14:48] Yeah. I mean, and that makes me just think of all like the actors and, you know, singers and how they need to show up for the concerts and get a ton of, you know, Shit, if, [00:15:00] if they cancel for their own mental stuff, right, they have to perform. You have to turn it on. And I think that causes so many mental issues for them.


[00:15:09] Yeah. I think for all of us there's a, one of the books that I introduced to my class leads with it's by Lisa Lehi, and it's called an Everyone Culture. And it's a pretty, it's a pretty provocative read about what workplaces could look like. But it leads in the preface by saying everyone around you is doing two jobs.


[00:15:30] The job that they're asked to do. Yeah. And then the job to pretend or to show up in a certain way that it's expected of them. So what could it be like at work if we didn't have the other job? If we could just be ourselves and be on a growth journey together. And, and have that be the norm and the expectation of work.


[00:15:48] I think that could be hugely impactful to our relationships at work and at home. Totally. That would create so much more connection. Absolutely. And I would say empathy [00:16:00] also in the workplace. Yeah. Absolutely. Like, oh, that's what, that's what you're going through. I'm so sorry. How can I support you?


[00:16:08] Let me support you today. You needed a little bit of extra love. Let me be there for you. I mean, yeah, we're all human. One organization, one organization in this book starts every meeting with a five to 10 minute air out session where you talk about whatever it is in your life that you need to say before you talk about work every meeting.


[00:16:25] I love that. Yeah, and it might just be like saying it. Might just be like, Hey, I just needed to let you know that, you know, I'm really anxious about this thing that's coming up this afternoon, and I'm a little spacey today. Yeah. Like, whew. It's way different than like, you know, Sit down outta your job. Get like, get, like we were talking about getting grounded, like with your grandma earlier.


[00:16:48] That's the version of getting grounded. Yeah. So good. Okay. Let's talk about your journey of getting to work with feelings and taking that leap of doing your own business and not working for [00:17:00] another company. How, how has that been? And look and. Oh, well, I, I would love to be able to tell you a great story about how successful I've been and how impressive it is and be inspiring to you in that way.


[00:17:14] But that story is, hasn't been written yet. It's still in progress, but I can talk about the journey of. All of the little tiny first steps that you need to do to even get to the point to feel ready to, to, to be out there, at least for me. Well, yeah.


[00:17:29] I mean, there's so many people out there that are just hanging on by a thread with their positions and they have a dream that they're after, right? Yeah. And they know what they're meant to do, but they're not taking that leap. They're not taking that step. They're. They're having one foot in the door at the corporate job.


[00:17:47] I mean, I have a friend, she's like, she's getting interviewed on like, I don't know, I wanna say like, let's just say New York Times like, sure. And she still has a second job. And I'm like, girl, [00:18:00] take the freaking leap. Yeah. You know? Yeah, you've already made it. You have press around the world, but she hasn't made money.


[00:18:09] And I truly, my intuitive take is you haven't made money because you haven't fully taken the leap yet. Correct? Yes. Oh, so I think the leap is, is it's actually. 10,000 small steps. Yeah. And, and I think it's important because at least for my neurology, like I'm not really a cliff jumper. I'm not really, let's go jump off the cliff, but I have this one.


[00:18:38] You're a rock climber though, right? Aren't you a rock climber? I'm not a rock climber. Oh, cyclist. Cyclist. Yeah. Cyclist. Yeah. Even though I don't jump off cliffs, I have this weird addiction to jump to, like following people off cliffs. So if you were to jump off a cliff, Bethany, I would be like, wait, I wanna go with you.


[00:18:55] Yeah. Be like, you forgot to put on the thing to make you land safely. [00:19:00] Let me do that for you. Like, oops, sorry. Yeah, really good wing man. And so, so, so I need someone that's even more, that's even more comfortable taking risks than, than me to help push me. That said, I still have a much higher risk tolerance than most people.


[00:19:16] So my journey sort of started with working through I'm trying to figure out how, how to even talk about the work that I do because I'm very confident in it. I, I told one of my advisors, I don't doubt my magic I just don't know how to describe it to people. I love that. Yes. Own it. So good. So, so I was working with some designers, so I was trying to build my brands.


[00:19:40] I do have an MBA in marketing and market strategy, so I care a lot about the brand and the, and how it feels to experience my services. And so I spend a lot of time up front really designing almost like the blanket, you know, how should it feel when you're wrapped up. Snug, snug in this blanket of, of stuff that I, I can help you with and I'm very proud of.


[00:19:57] You know, first of all, the company name work with [00:20:00] feelings the brand around it. It's this blend of masculine and feminine. It's heart forward, but it's strong. These were important things for me to figure out before I would feel confident to put it in front of people. Then I, I was sort of running into a confidence wall and these are the 10001st steps.


[00:20:17] It's like you have to do all these little things and each of these little things can feel really uncomfortable, and they all generally take longer than you think. At least for me. So I was, I was in kind of a funk. It had been probably 90 days since I committed to taking the Big Leap before I realized it was 10,000 small steps.


[00:20:36] And I had taken, you know, a few hundred small steps, it feel, it felt like. Yeah. But I was still very far away and my family was out of town. And it was a hot week in, in late summer. And it was, it was raining hard thunderstorms every evening, only for like 35 minutes. So there were just these flash intense storms every evening.


[00:20:58] And after the storm it would feel[00:21:00] a cyclist and ah, it paused.


[00:21:02] Okay. This is so funny because Mathias is telling a story about thunderstorms and lightning and then all of a sudden the zoom freezes. Good. I'm just, I always am paying attention to the timing of things.


[00:21:14] Like when I'm doing a healing session, I'm like, oh, a siren just started going off. That's a warning sign, you know? That's funny. But it's just funny cuz that correlated with thunderstorms and lightning, every night it was, it was, it was super hot during the day and every night for about 30 minutes, it would storm really intensely and, and then, and then go away. And so I was at this sort of stuck point in trying to do this work and trying to move one foot after the other and, and trying to get this business off the ground.


[00:21:38] And I realized I was holding onto, I was very resistant to like putting contact info out there. So, so I think at that time it was, I created an email address that said like, let's chat@mathiasgran.com. And I was like, that's a fun, fun email. And I was really resisting putting that in my LinkedIn profile and just opening it up to the public [00:22:00] because I was just afraid that I was just gonna get spammed all day long.


[00:22:03] And so I didn't wanna do it. I was holding on and I had this moment where I realized like, I'm afraid to be seen right now. And I think we all are to a certain extent. And so what I decided to do once I noticed that was I was like, how can I go be seen? So in, in a mi in amongst all these storms, the day had finally cooled off.


[00:22:28] I took off all my clothes except my shorts and my cycling helmet, and I got on my bike and I just rode. And I felt like the metaphor of just having so much of my body exposed to the elements, to strangers, to the world, to the wind that it was an important sensory experience for me to help realize that being seen isn't necessarily scary and in fact it's essential.


[00:22:56] And so here I was and, and every night that week, so here I was on this bike, [00:23:00] like, and I'm super tall. I'm like six and a half feet tall, relatively thin. And so I'm just like, this bean pole out there on this, on this bike riding for 45 minutes to an hour each night. And it gave me, that's the push that I needed.


[00:23:13] Yeah. To, to be able to say like, you know, it's okay for me to be seen. I'm, I'm willing to take that risk. And I think I still struggle with that sometimes, but that's an example of sort of that one, like, that next first step that I had to take was say, what's, what's the harm in me getting spam? Yeah. You know, I'm also paranoid to put my voice on the internet, but I'm like, what's the harm in doing a podcast with my friends?


[00:23:36] You know? Yeah. Why don't, why don't I put myself out there more? And the important thing is that the universe doesn't need to care about me. Only the people that want to work with me need to care. And so, you know, just reaching that point of saying, I, I'll do the best I can. I'll do what I can do, but it, it's gonna land with the right people.


[00:23:55] And just trusting that was a really important one of those really important hard first steps that had nothing to [00:24:00] do with a checklist or a, you know. Yeah. So what, how did you feel afterwards you, did you feel the freedom. Yeah, I just connected. I, I think the biggest thing for me was feeling the breeze on my chest.


[00:24:13] And feeling it run down my back because, you know, you can't, you can't like pause sensory input. Yeah. And, and I think that's what I needed to move out of my head or the crown chakra, you know, and move down, move energetically down into the rest of my body because that's where I was frozen, you know, I was frozen with on an idea, not on, on the truth.


[00:24:33] So, so good. And so also guys, this is our second podcast cuz somehow I deleted the first one. And he has a really funny dentist story that I feel like we need to bring back because it's also a courageous adventure. Yes. Also another unfinished story. And I think that's how it's, well, I think it's important because I think that's [00:25:00] what life is.


[00:25:00] I think. Yeah. You know, there's, there's this great cowboy song that my brother Luke plays on his guitar that, that I also play on my guitar when I get together with people. And it's called The Cape. And one of the lines in the cape is you know, he's this character, this story of this person says he's, he's one of those who knows that life is just a leap of faith.


[00:25:19] Mm-hmm. So close your eyes, hold your breath, and always trust your cape. Mm-hmm. And it's, it's such a powerful phrase, a about just being on that edge and, and, and trusting where life is leading you, where you want life to take you. Right. So it's not about absolving yourself of any duty or responsibility to live fully.


[00:25:39] It's encouraging you to listen to yourself and choosing to live fully. Right. So the dentist story is is an unfinished story. That, that was a bit of a leap of faith. So, In my class, I, I start out with 10 minutes at the start of each class asking these leaders to reflect on any challenges that they've taken on.


[00:25:59] Because [00:26:00] the whole idea of personal development is, is challenge and support. You need to take a risk, but have the right supports in place to be with you if that risk doesn't play out. And also to, to celebrate with you when it does. And so I just wanted to give this cadence to this class to every week reflect on did I take a risk this week?


[00:26:16] Was there something challenging that came up? Does anyone wanna share and be seen in that? And so I shared this story where, well, I was needing, I felt like I needed to be taking a challenge because here I am professing literally, and I'm like, I need to live these values as well. And that's what I coach.


[00:26:33] That's what I like when you ha when I have clients that are like stuck. And more so back in the day when I did all this group coaching where it's like I. You know, there might be people that are looking to go to the gym every day or, or get healthy or start a company or whatever. And I'm like, okay, everywhere.


[00:26:51] I'm not taking action as their leader. Right. I need to go and get on it. Yeah. And then you start to see the ripple effect in the [00:27:00] reflection through the client Absolutely. Start to take action. So, yeah, absolutely. Because I mean, there's plenty of narrative out there about how just go for it works, you know, and, and you're a Portland girl.


[00:27:11] And so like, just do it is like part of your dna N Oh yeah. Yeah. Literally. But I think that is only part of the equation and, and so, you know, I love it if that's motivating to you. I, I think that the benefits that I've had with people is more of acknowledging the challenge side. That it's like you some, sometimes you can just get up and just do it, but there's a threshold at which point, like the challenge is bigger than that.


[00:27:37] And you need people to be there with you on that challenge. Yeah. So, so for me, I was looking for a challenge that was achievable, but still tough. And I looked at my wall behind me. That's all grayed out now. And I had a sticky note up there that said dentist. So when I was in graduate, or no, when I was an undergrad, right before my dental insurance expired, I went to dentist for the [00:28:00] first time in a bit.


[00:28:01] And it turns out that I had, I had sealants put on all my molars when I was 10 because they had deep pits or something. So they like melt plastic onto your teeth to protect them. Wow. And apparently in the 15 or whatever, so many years followed that application, those plastic seals had cracked


[00:28:22] and essentially all my molars that were supposed to be shielded, all had cavities, every single one of them. Ah. And it was just, So hard because I had to go every single Tuesday for six straight Tuesdays to go get a different tooth worked on and then go to class, like numb. Right? At that time, I was fine.


[00:28:42] I was courageous and young and and it was fine. Well, because of all that work, like, I just didn't really like going to dentists. I don't have dental anxiety, but it just is not a preferred task, I guess. Mm-hmm. And so I, I've been, I've been taking care of my mouth on my own, [00:29:00] but I haven't been asking professionals how I'm doing.


[00:29:02] So I decided that that's a challenge that I should do, is I should call a dentist and schedule an appointment. So I did. So I'm nervous, right? And I'm like, I wanna know what sort of environment I'm walking into, if possible, that will help me.


[00:29:18] So I call the first dentist. I'm like, I, I remember, I remember Brene Brown said something about the discomfort of doing something that, you know, sh you should do, but you're avoiding, she did an unscientific study where she used to stopwatch and every time she, she had to do the thing, it was only uncomfortable for eight seconds on average.


[00:29:34] Oh, okay. So for me, picking up the phone, calling the de the first dentist, I was like, I can do this. I can do eight, eight to 30 seconds of, of discomfort. Mm-hmm. I talked to the desk, I'm like, Hey, I don't really look forward to the dentist. What do you guys do to help people that don't like coming to the dentist?


[00:29:52] And they're like, what? They're like, okay, you're not the right one next. So I call another one. I'm like, all right, eight seconds I can do this. [00:30:00] And they're like, you mean like drugs? Like you want. Anxiety medicine. I'm like, no, I wanna know like how you interact with people and like how you accommodate them if they don't like coming to the dentist, like, I'm not the only one who doesn't like going to the dentist.


[00:30:15] Yeah. And they're like, well, we can prescribe you things if that's what you mean. I'm like, no, I'm trying to like, grow through a phobic response. Like, I don't want to drug myself and numb myself out of it. You can't imagine the receptionist like, fully getting this. Yeah. And they aren't necessarily trained on like that, you know?


[00:30:36] Right. So I'm, I'm concluding that I'm a weird person, you know, to they're, oh, no. Okay. Yeah. So, so I called the third dentist and, and, and they said well, how'd you find us? I said, I just Googled for someone nearby. And she's like, oh, you should, no, you're in good hands. Like, we take care of you the whole way through.


[00:30:54] Trust us. This is the place for you. I'm like, great. So I go and, and, [00:31:00] Scheduled my first checkup in like a handful of years. It's been a long time. And I went in and it was great. They, they, they did, they did a great job. I had the best hygienist I've had in my life. I felt so good. And then the dentist came in and she said so all those, all those molars, right?


[00:31:19] Well, the fillings are stronger than the bone. So after 20 years of having fillings in these molars, the bone is getting weak and you're at risk of fracturing all of your molars. So you need to get crowns in all of your molars. And that, that was hard news to hear. Yeah. So I was proud. I took the risk, I got the cleaning, felt great.


[00:31:46] Went home and I scheduled my first crown appointment for the next week. Cause I was like, you know what? We're gonna keep this going. I took a risk, I did this on purpose for my class. I'm being a leader. I'm showing them how this works. I can do this. So I went in the next week [00:32:00] and I laid down in the chair and she had just numbed me.


[00:32:05] And then she jammed this plastic wedge, like in my jaw to like hold my jaw open. She didn't tell me she was gonna do it, she just put it in your, in my mouth. And I went from like calm and ready to like, oh hell no attack triggered. Yeah. Yeah. And what some people don't know about me is like, I'm a pretty anxious, neurotic person at like base level.


[00:32:30] And so I have a lot of experience with anxiety. Mm-hmm. This was not anxiety. This was like releasing and triggering all the mouth trauma mm-hmm. From my life. Yeah. And just to have like, your, your face is such a personal, and your mouth is such a personal space. Like, to have someone just do something that's you know, immobilizing without like mm-hmm.


[00:32:57] Guiding you through it. It, it [00:33:00] just, it just took me there. And so I'm sitting there as a 42 year old man, like sobbing, like shaking and sobbing in the dental chair. And everyone's very concerned. Very concerned. And, and I'm like, you guys, this is like, it's, it's fine. Like it's important for me to have this experience because this isn't a panic attack, you know, this is just my body experiencing a traumatic memory.


[00:33:27] And it'll be, it'll be okay. And I think that was such an important moment. That's so, so much more peaceful. Yeah. Even though it was uncomfortable, it wasn't bad. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so often we associate judgment to our feelings. Good. Feeling a bad, feeling, a good situation, a bad feeling, a good memory, a bad memory.


[00:33:44] And I think it was really, really important to just call out, like, here was this intense feeling that was unpleasant, but it wasn't bad. In fact, it felt like growth to me. So I didn't get that crown that day. I got one feeling, but I didn't get that crown that [00:34:00] day. And I need to figure out where to go next.


[00:34:01] So if you're, if you're a Zen dentist listening into this in the Denver area I've got like, you know, like 15 grand worth of dental work coming. But I want to find, I wanna find the, the place that's gonna be that's gonna match my energy. Mm-hmm. Because I, I can't listen to pop music and have wedges shoved in my mouth, but I can lay there calmly and keep my jaw open for as long as I need.


[00:34:21] If, if the energy is right in the room, you need like, pink hearts everywhere. I mean, just like bamboo wallpaper would be a good start, you know. Okay. Bamboo wallpaper. There you go. Oh my God. That'd be so funny if a dentist reaches out to you. So good. It would be good. So in sharing this story with your class, what was, how did that go?


[00:34:43] What was the reaction or the reflection? Yeah. I think to you and me, it, it's, it's pretty straightforward, but mm-hmm. I think to someone for the first time starting to, to lean into understanding who they are and connecting to their experiences there are a lot of eyes being opened around. [00:35:00] Just that conclusion that something that's intense and uncomfortable doesn't have to be bad.


[00:35:05] Yeah. And that taking a risk won't necessarily give you a positive outcome, but you absolutely grow. And I think that's really important for leaders, not only in their own development, but also to open their parts and minds and approaches to their teams and their people. Because when we look at any situation can give us a magnitude, a multitude of outcomes, then the pressure is off.


[00:35:31] We don't have to do it a certain way. The problem doesn't have to be solved in one particular way. It can be solved in a number of ways. And we can be open and curious and that energy is gonna bring more out of our teams and more out of our people and create more trust in, in a higher performing teams than us being really, really directive in our approach.


[00:35:50] Yeah. So good. So good. So inspiring. So what are your ideal clients? Who are they? So [00:36:00] I believe, yeah, that there are leaders out there who maybe have done some counseling maybe have worked through some stuff on their leadership journey where they've connected to people over expectations.


[00:36:15] Maybe you've been an advocate for others, maybe you've been recognized for that. So there are leaders out there who understand the value of their experience at a, an emotional level, but also just at a human level. And this work is infinite. You're never done growing. And so I think my ideal clients are those leaders who, who already see that there's a better way and want help facilitating that better way.


[00:36:41] Whether that's, you know, just, just facilitating conversations with teams whether that's rolling out. A a cultural or behavior initiative. But there are leaders out there who, who know what they want the workplace to feel like, and they just don't have the resources on their own to make that happen.


[00:36:58] I think those are my clients. [00:37:00] Yeah. And through bringing and acknowledging people's feelings, then you're also creating a sustainable workforce. Yeah. I mean, people want to be around people who appreciate them. Yeah. Of people like being valued authentically. And so, you know, this doesn't look like HR sponsored, recognition like prizes, there are a number of ways that we formally try to recognize people in the workplace, but what works way more effectively is, is for people to genuinely feel appreciated and valued.


[00:37:36] And to get there, you typically need to to share things. About yourself, about your struggles, about your journey to be able to relate to people and give them something to, to grab onto. And so I think I'm very skilled at facilitating those conversations and, and helping those feelings come out in a safe way.


[00:37:54] And you know, it's not always about, it doesn't always have to feel like group counseling. In fact, most of the [00:38:00] time it doesn't. Most of the time it's talking about real work things, but just naming the conflict and the tension in the room. Right. And in doing so, people start to to open up and feel more connection.


[00:38:11] Yeah, and I mean, I get it . I desire to work with people that are open because if they aren't already open, I. It's more of an uphill battle, and I'm not here to prove myself.


[00:38:23] Right? So when you work with somebody that's open and already kind of gets it at some level it's just so much easier to radiate that out into the world or the workforce, you know? Absolutely. You know, I see, I saw that through change management. Mm-hmm. I, I saw that in my leadership development in class.


[00:38:41] There are some students that just sort of get it right away, and even if it's new, they're in yeah. So, so you don't have to be fully eyes open to, to be able to experience really positive change. But it's just so much of a joy to work for organizations and leaders who, who do see it. And, and each [00:39:00] person has their own narrative and their own reason for seeing it, and we honor that for sure.


[00:39:04] But yeah, I've been in positions where I've had to try to convince people that this is the right way to manage people or, or lead people. And, and it just, It's just hard, you know, if you don't agree that people are worth it, if you don't agree that people deserve to be treated with respect all the time.


[00:39:22] If you don't believe that there's greatness in every individual y you know, old management styles will work for you. You, you can carrot it and stick people all day long and get the, get the desired outcome that is effective from a production perspective. It is not effective from a connection and cultural buy-in perspective.


[00:39:42] And I don't think it's sustainable. Yeah. That's not sustainable. Those, those are the companies where people are fleeing. Yeah. And yeah, exactly. I mean, there's a reason that you would stay in an environment where you are constrained and it's usually because that that job [00:40:00] is providing something for you outside of the job.


[00:40:04] So, yeah. Maybe it's golden handcuffs. So I just don't know that I'll get a job like this at another organization for this pay. Or maybe it's the pension, you know, if I can hold on for five more years, I can retire early. Maybe it's your kids trying to graduate from high school and you don't wanna disrupt their life for the next 18 months.


[00:40:23] You know, there are a number of reasons outside of work that you might choose to stay in a situation that's not great. Yeah. And, and there's room in my heart for that, for sure. On the other hand, I think if we have access to leaders who wanna make a difference in the world, if you can create an environment for people to just take that struggle off the table, why wouldn't you?


[00:40:43] I was talking to somebody just the other day, she's like, I have my dream job. I'm like, oh, cool. What do you do? Like, I don't know her, right? Yeah. She's like, I'm a financial services. She's like, yeah, it's not about the job, it's about the culture, the pay, the bonuses.


[00:40:56] The people that I work with are so fun [00:41:00] and flexibility. I guess she has some flexibility. So it was just like, yeah, she doesn't care. She actually doesn't care what she does. It was the experience that she's having that Yeah. Created the dream job for her. Absolutely. So good. I I think there's a lot of truth to that and it exactly matches how you described the millennial generation speaking Yeah.


[00:41:22] More into the experience than, than the than the class you wanna hire them. This is what you gotta do. Yeah. You gotta create a good experience. Mm-hmm. And it's, and it's not about ping pong tables and kegerators and you know, it, it is all of the, the infrastructure that you think a millennial wants is is is actually not the thing that moves the dial.


[00:41:40] It's, it's what it feels like. It's what experience they have when they're in that building. So if a ping pong table helps people get together and it's, you know, supportive, like great maybe that works. But maybe a bike locker would be cool to like let people have their bikes indoors and out of the weather and encourage people to, you know, especially if it dias.[00:42:00]


[00:42:00] Exactly. Sticking for me now, I want indoor bike parking. That's for you. Exactly. Okay, cool. Well to wrap it up, I always ask what are your three keys to quantum leaping,


[00:42:14] three keys to quantum leaping?


[00:42:17] So I'm thinking of, of a lot of thoughts. I think the first for me is vision or belief. So I think you need to be able to imagine. Why that leap is important to you? So you can connect to that future version of yourself. I think the next is, you know, it's gonna sound cheesy cause I talk about challenge and support and leadership, but it's like, it, it needs to be a, a challenge.


[00:42:45] The biggest growth opportunities come from situations that make us uncomfortable. And I think that it's about finding that threshold of what's too uncomfortable in the right amount. So start with something small that you can achieve that just raises your heartbeat a [00:43:00] little bit. Start there, but it has to be a challenge.


[00:43:03] And then, and then the last thing, you only need to go through it eight seconds apparently. Yeah, exactly. You made me think of the Mel Robbins, the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 thing too, when you said that. Sure. Yeah, exactly. And then, and then support. You know, I, I think that, I think many of us struggle to To really connect to internal validation to see ourselves as great.


[00:43:27] Mm-hmm. Many of us struggle with imposter syndrome and thinking we're not good enough or unworthy in a number of ways. And so support could be external. But it really needs to be internal. I think for you to make that quantum leap, you need a blend of both. You need to have that friend that sees you taking that risk, and it's like you go girl or boy or them go, they go you.


[00:43:49] And then I think you need to go back to belief. It's like, and now here I am. Holy crap. I did, I did that. This is now a part of my story. This is now a part of my [00:44:00] life. And, and so it's, so I think I said the three things were belief or vision, challenge and then support internal and external. So you, you can ultimately end up validating your path in life and that's how you live with abundance.


[00:44:14] And that's, that's the path I'm on is, is to look at. All of my experiences in my life each day and say, which of these are really serving not only where I am now, but where I wanna be and which of these things are my accepting, because it's just the way my life is right now. And I think that I can live with abundance and I need to to help break some intergenerational cycles that are important for me, for my kids.


[00:44:37] Yeah. So good. All right. Well thank you so much. Glad we rerecorded this and are making it happen. Yes, me too.



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